tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11828686.post5207946749120679865..comments2024-03-18T23:11:58.780+00:00Comments on Plymothian Transit: Stagecoach Registerdidbygrahamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01858408719372985035noreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11828686.post-76726454598824670492015-07-22T16:08:50.683+01:002015-07-22T16:08:50.683+01:00Franchising wont solve anything .The same operator...Franchising wont solve anything .The same operators will clean up .They have the depots and staff in place already.It would involve huge costs for a new company to start and set up what with all the politics of planning comittees .The bill will be on the taxpayer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11828686.post-90003816074297265112015-07-21T19:22:04.354+01:002015-07-21T19:22:04.354+01:00I getting realy worried couse if stage coach don&#...I getting realy worried couse if stage coach don't take on all off first routes in Plymouth <br />this means citybus will be able to put fares up realy high for retrun or single and day tickets and just cut the seavice because there be only main bus company ,,u cant call jackets bus company ,or target travel realy Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11828686.post-38000414497008237662015-07-20T20:54:51.483+01:002015-07-20T20:54:51.483+01:00In answer to 'Anon 19th July 21.20', there...In answer to 'Anon 19th July 21.20', there are two reasons public transport in London can get very crowded:<br />(i) the sheer size of the place, with 8 million people and a high level of commuting;<br />(ii) the futility (and expense) of trying to drive a car there, especially in the rush hour.<br /><br />Cornwall (pop. half a million) is not comparable on both grounds. A better comparison might be with Northern Ireland where trains and almost all buses are run by the same (nationalised) operator - there is no franchising, but the network is centrally planned. I believe NI has the highest level of satisfaction with public transport of any part of the UK - I have used it and found it both reliable and pleasant to use.<br /><br />I have also used public transport in Manchester and found the tram system pretty good, but some parts of the bus network an illustration of why unfettered competition is not appropriate for a large city. I believe the number of buses along Oxford Road had to be restricted as the sheer quantity of them was causing the congestion that buses ought to be relieving. I believe all the services together provided better than a two-minute headway.<br /><br /><br /><br />Keithnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11828686.post-72319856898854479872015-07-20T20:32:03.471+01:002015-07-20T20:32:03.471+01:00If the London pattern is to be used in Cornwall, t...If the London pattern is to be used in Cornwall, the services will be franchised route by route, not area by area, let alone one franchise for the whole of Cornwall. The CMA (or Competition Commission) has in the past been a bit concerned by First running not only a network of bus services but also nearly all the trains in Cornwall.Keithnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11828686.post-67415337974143875222015-07-20T09:01:21.651+01:002015-07-20T09:01:21.651+01:00Yes, First pulled out of London because they were ...Yes, First pulled out of London because they were desperate for the cash to pay off debt. Stagecoach pulled out because they didn't like the franchise/tendering set-up but bought it back simply because they got it for a fraction of what what they'd sold it for. Mind you, it was on its knees by then and has now been turned around. <br /><br />Buses in London can do one or two tender periods. A tender period is five years with a potential two years added for 'good behaviour', so two tender periods could be anything between ten and fourteen years. The oldest buses up there are now around 51/02-plate.<br /><br />Go-Ahead London buses do get cascaded around the country. Stagecoach ones are now all leased, so won't generally get cascaded but there are still some older company-owned buses in London which is why some do currently get cascaded but it's generally to cover specific needs rather than a steadfast policy.<br /><br />Part of First's DDA problem arises from the period ten years ago when they were not buying sufficient new buses nationally to maintain an appropriate age profile and the vast majority of the new buses they did buy went into London. Then they sold London and no longer had access to all those buses which would otherwise have become mid-life cascades. That has left a massive hole across the provincial fleet and stuffed the original plans to meet DDA, giving them quite an imbalance in the fleet profile age-wise. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11828686.post-15438509730436429682015-07-20T01:03:22.433+01:002015-07-20T01:03:22.433+01:00I think that First can produce a reasonable profit...I think that First can produce a reasonable profit in Cornwall so are likely to be committed to the area. They have just purchased the former WG depot so have a new large base there and will soon have the influx of repainted low floor buses from Plymouth and other areas of the country so will have a DDA compliant fleet before too long. Without and serious competition they have been able to pump up the fares a fair bit too so that will help. didbygrahamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858408719372985035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11828686.post-25917927966746753742015-07-20T00:56:54.161+01:002015-07-20T00:56:54.161+01:00Stagecoach did pull out of London, but then brough...Stagecoach did pull out of London, but then brought it back again! Fisrt then sold their London fleet, but I don't think it was that they didn't like the franchising, more a case of needing the money!didbygrahamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858408719372985035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11828686.post-3204238553369522182015-07-19T22:46:47.010+01:002015-07-19T22:46:47.010+01:00I suggested on the 'Step Back' page that t...I suggested on the 'Step Back' page that the location of the Cornish business and its inherent difficulties, summer peaks etc may indeed make First reconsider remaining there in due course. I still think it may well be the case and that was before the franchising issues were mentioned. Franchising will ramp up costs - it always does - but providing drivers can be TUPE'd to a franchise winner, First would always have the option of moving the buses out and selling the depot sites on for other uses or redevelopment. Camborne especially must be quite a valuable site given its town centre location. As the poster at 19:24 alludes to, you have to wonder who the heck else (apart from First just because they already have the facilities there) would want to get involved with franchising in Cornwall? Even if drivers' jobs were safeguarded via TUPE, the current buses and depots will not be. I'd imagine that the Council will expect to parcel things up across several different fanchisees, however that presupposes that (a) there will be lots of bidders and (b) there are bids at rates that the Council anticipates and deems value for money. I can forsee neither of those things working out like that. It will be fascinating to watch; plus there's the now the question of will Stagecoach continue with Bude and rebid for the Wadebridge area tender (which I assue is currently only short-term)?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11828686.post-19652973087299361162015-07-19T21:59:41.292+01:002015-07-19T21:59:41.292+01:00I don't think car ownership is all that high ...I don't think car ownership is all that high in the urban areas which are First Kernow's heartland - St. Austell, Truro, Falmouth, Camborne/Redruth and Penzance, which are all reasonably close together. They have few services in the more remote rural areas, such as North Cornwall. Take into account also that, for wage levels, of the 50 shire counties in England, Cornwall comes 50th. There is quite a bit of short-distance train travel in Mid- and West Cornwall, too - so public transport is both necessary and well-used.<br /><br />I suspect First's services generally carry good loads - and are not seasonal - so, with quite high fares and little opposition, almost certainly produce a good profit. The remoteness, of course, is from the rest of the First empire - once Plymouth is gone, the nearest operating centres will be Taunton and - and where? Dorchester? Weymouth?Keithnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11828686.post-51132422765230185572015-07-19T21:43:51.625+01:002015-07-19T21:43:51.625+01:00I am sorry I got my facts wrong about Stagecoach -...I am sorry I got my facts wrong about Stagecoach - yes, they are still operating in London. Did they pull out and then come back or have I just got it completely wrong? Either way, this blows my argument about the Cornwall services right out of the water!<br /><br />As to the age of buses in London, my understanding is that tenders will usually specify either new buses or buses not more than seven years old. Assuming I have not got this wrong too, that does, of course, mean that buses which are seven years old at the start of the tender period will be more than that by the end of it. Four years later? Five? Either way, this still means than perfectly serviceable buses are then surplus to requirements and will then need to be sold or, if it is one of the big groups, transferred elsewhere. I believe GoAhead work in a rather different way from First and Stagecoach in that they do not transfer buses within the group but rather have the subsidiary companies buy in buses form other subsidiaries - with the freedom to buy from elsewhere or to buy new if they wish.<br /><br />If it is First, rather than Stagecoach, which has pulled out of London - and if the reason was than they did not like franchising - then First Kernow will not be too keen on that happening in Cornwall.<br /><br />I was not aware that Transport for Greater Manchester already existed - but it does not at the moment have the powers that TfL does. They would certainly welcome the ability to design a co-ordinated network - especially as they have an extensive tram system and also quite a good network of suburban rail services.Keuthnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11828686.post-80987892191468111732015-07-19T21:20:09.516+01:002015-07-19T21:20:09.516+01:00Why do every one thinks the London model works eve...Why do every one thinks the London model works every where .London is the capital and takes up nearly £1Billion in subsidies .I find buses better outside London because you dont get buses packed .I have lived in London its a nightmare during rush hour and the buses and underground are always on strike.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11828686.post-67299975334347140962015-07-19T19:24:03.613+01:002015-07-19T19:24:03.613+01:00Surely the comments about Cornish franchising and ...Surely the comments about Cornish franchising and Stagecoach are spot on.............what is perplexing though is the apparent willingness of First to want to continue in Cornwall.<br />Given the remoteness of the place and the population density.it is hard to see First Kernow ever producing margins required by First,but they seem very willing to give it a go............for the time being?????Bus enthusiast for over 60 yearshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16344421251975625769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11828686.post-88156776072920566682015-07-19T17:25:51.779+01:002015-07-19T17:25:51.779+01:00Transport for Greater Manchester (TfGM) has in fac...Transport for Greater Manchester (TfGM) has in fact existed since 2011.<br /><br />The average age of buses in London is about seven years, so to say that there are few around more than seven years old is wide of the mark. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11828686.post-1952679871617618922015-07-19T14:02:42.948+01:002015-07-19T14:02:42.948+01:00No, as no fares are charged. Anyone is free to op...No, as no fares are charged. Anyone is free to operate a fares-free service without registering it. Sometimes the larger groups will operate a service fares-free for a few days if they want to get started and have missed the registration deadline - I think the competition people take a dim view of this, but I am not sure how much they can do about it.Keithnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11828686.post-7525622532384079582015-07-19T07:32:22.980+01:002015-07-19T07:32:22.980+01:00First pulled out of London in 2013, so have no sto...First pulled out of London in 2013, so have no stock to pass down there anymore (maybe this is a issue with all the non dda buses) and stagecoach have been back in London since 2010! Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11828686.post-23110711742871229012015-07-18T21:34:01.562+01:002015-07-18T21:34:01.562+01:00I've not seen the waitrose contract cancelled ...I've not seen the waitrose contract cancelled by first or registered by stagecoach, as it's a contract would it still appear on vosa? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11828686.post-82090341422252630822015-07-18T20:38:08.727+01:002015-07-18T20:38:08.727+01:00I suspect ‘Anon 18th July’ may have hit the point....I suspect ‘Anon 18th July’ may have hit the point.<br /><br />An item in today's Cornish Times may be a clue as to why Stagecoach seem to be keeping out of Cornwall. As part of the Government's devolution plans, some areas are to be given extra powers including oversight of transport. This is something Manchester in particular has been asking for for a while now - they want to set up a ‘Transport for Manchester’ with similar franchising and unified ticketing arrangements as Transport for London. This, of course, is anathema to Brian Souter, who pulled out of London because there was not sufficient profit in franchised services nor room for operator-inspired innovation.<br /><br />Now it appears that similar powers are going to be devolved to Cornwall - and they will have a grant of £50 million to cover the introduction of County-wide bus-service franchising and the smart ticketing for buses, trains and ferries. For the buses this will mean that Cornwall Council will plan the network and fix timetables and fares, with a unified fare scale throughout Cornwall and complete inter-availability of tickets between operators. I am not sure how this works in London, but I imagine operators will no longer have to register services. In London the system is that all fares are passed to TfL- operators merely tender to run the service. TfL also specify what type of vehicle should be used - with, generally, few over seven years old. This is why both First and GoAhead can cascade from London buses which still have plenty of useful life left in them.<br /><br />I don’t know when all this is going to happen - but there would seem to be even more interesting times ahead.Keithnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11828686.post-3808452617488155602015-07-18T09:34:21.645+01:002015-07-18T09:34:21.645+01:00Dartmouth PR is run on behalf of the council, cont...Dartmouth PR is run on behalf of the council, contract ends later this yearAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11828686.post-48671875481465882032015-07-18T00:07:04.936+01:002015-07-18T00:07:04.936+01:00Well done Graham for setting those who know little...Well done Graham for setting those who know little of the industry correct.<br /><br />Of course, Stagecoach decision not to run into Cornwall might have something to do with the recent announcement of devolution, and powers over bus franchising being given to Cornwall County Council. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11828686.post-81032247743682295822015-07-17T13:30:45.845+01:002015-07-17T13:30:45.845+01:00Strewth Graham - well done for translating! Once a...Strewth Graham - well done for translating! Once again, spot on. The council sold PCB and could specify conditions for sale to protect jobs etc. They have no influence on the sale of First Devon. <br /><br />Do some people just make stuff up?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11828686.post-85939507593684641172015-07-17T11:57:25.774+01:002015-07-17T11:57:25.774+01:00I can't see many new buses being transferred. ...I can't see many new buses being transferred. I've heard that the 57 to Exmouth is going GOLD, so the 57 10 regs's are going to Paignton, maybe the tridents will then come to Plymouth? Some of the old Cooks Coaches Solo's etc. will probably be transferred over to, and possibly the RED P&R E400s which are being replaced by MMC's.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11828686.post-80859571879201438442015-07-17T11:24:43.706+01:002015-07-17T11:24:43.706+01:00Anything that needs to be registered would have to...Anything that needs to be registered would have to have been done by now if it is to start on the 7th September. Citybus have the DCC contract for Tavistock to Okehampton and also for the Sunday service on to Barnstaple, so they are going to have to run something to Tavistock to cope with those - although the withdrawal of the Sunday services is one of DCC's planned economies. It could be that there are still some Citybus registrations which have yet to appear in Notices and Proceedings. One obvious one would be stepping up the frequency of the Torpoint service - dropping from the current six buses an hour to two would be quite severe, not to mending evening services.Keithnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11828686.post-77983393456210483392015-07-17T09:13:27.088+01:002015-07-17T09:13:27.088+01:00Unlikely - they will have large wage bills to pay ...Unlikely - they will have large wage bills to pay from September, so need to get income rolling in quickly. It would be hugely expensive to wait for six months and have a proportion of drivers doing nothing, plus they'd lose the existing First passengers that they could inherit immediately if routes were dropped for six months.<br />There's clearly a part of Stagecoach's plan which hasn't yet been made public. They won't be doing all of this without believing the numbers add up both financially and staff-wise.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11828686.post-39064356665834929962015-07-17T08:19:19.510+01:002015-07-17T08:19:19.510+01:00Yeah agreed and the withdrawal of blue flash too I...Yeah agreed and the withdrawal of blue flash too I would say!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11828686.post-67766613038218485382015-07-16T23:41:29.171+01:002015-07-16T23:41:29.171+01:00I wouldn't be surprised if we see 1/X1/83/86 t...I wouldn't be surprised if we see 1/X1/83/86 turn Gold by the end of this year / early next year.Rnoreply@blogger.com